I think 1d4chan brought this idea up, but it's speculated that skaven are similar to the rat utopia experiment, so theoretically if you were to remove some skaven children from their home and raise them in a nice, wide, opened area where they don't have to compete for space, resources, or worry about being killed constantly it would be possible for them to turn out ok, however the difficulty to do this and the fact it would have so little reward to it besides just proving it could be done makes it unlikely.

bakeneko said:
I think 1d4chan brought this idea up, but it's speculated that skaven are similar to the rat utopia experiment, so theoretically if you were to remove some skaven children from their home and raise them in a nice, wide, opened area where they don't have to compete for space, resources, or worry about being killed constantly it would be possible for them to turn out ok, however the difficulty to do this and the fact it would have so little reward to it besides just proving it could be done makes it unlikely.

What if my reward for doing it is adorable rat children?

bakeneko said:
I think 1d4chan brought this idea up, but it's speculated that skaven are similar to the rat utopia experiment, so theoretically if you were to remove some skaven children from their home and raise them in a nice, wide, opened area where they don't have to compete for space, resources, or worry about being killed constantly it would be possible for them to turn out ok, however the difficulty to do this and the fact it would have so little reward to it besides just proving it could be done makes it unlikely.

I don't think that would work. I've pondered the idea a lot, as I'm a massive sucker for redemption. In every situation I've thought of there's always one big blockage that keeps anything from going anywhere. C̗̞̪H̬̭A͚̱̦O̢̖̟S̮͎̜̖͚͉͝. It's an inherently evil concept that is as a part of the skaven as their skin. The things females are put through, the chemicals and warpfire they're pumped full of is going to have effects on the offspring, you might be able to selectively breed and dilute them of it, but that would take who knows how many decades, assuming you're not just killed for heresy right off the bat anyways. And all that is ignoring the spiritual connection to the great horned rat that will undoubtably have influence over the entire thing. Making a race inherently evil is boring in my opinion, but having no happiness is what the warhammer universe gets off to, so take it how you will.

sparks127 said:
I don't think that would work. I've pondered the idea a lot, as I'm a massive sucker for redemption. In every situation I've thought of there's always one big blockage that keeps anything from going anywhere. C̗̞̪H̬̭A͚̱̦O̢̖̟S̮͎̜̖͚͉͝. It's an inherently evil concept that is as a part of the skaven as their skin. The things females are put through, the chemicals and warpfire they're pumped full of is going to have effects on the offspring, you might be able to selectively breed and dilute them of it, but that would take who knows how many decades, assuming you're not just killed for heresy right off the bat anyways. And all that is ignoring the spiritual connection to the great horned rat that will undoubtably have influence over the entire thing. Making a race inherently evil is boring in my opinion, but having no happiness is what the warhammer universe gets off to, so take it how you will.

True, but when you break down basically what it would even take to get to them it looks like this:
The first thing you would have to do and get into one of the skaven strongholds, you would then have to find a way to get through every single skaven because they would all be trying to kill you for just being there, then you would have to access the breeding chambers, which are the most heavily guarded areas in skaven society next to maybe the council of 13 or the clan heads themselves, once you've done that the skaven females tend to be house sized creatures that are also fully capable of killing you if given the chance, once you have the skaven kids you then have to get them out, at that point if the skaven weren't throwing everything they had at you before they definitely are now, and if you manage to get past all of that and escape you now have to live with the fear of one of the skaven assassin's coming after you at some point, and they tend to be really good at what they do.
After all of that your reward is you might be able to raise some not evil or crazy skaven that your neighbors will still kill on sight or call an inquisitor about if they ever saw them.
You can probably see why no one has even bothered to make an attempt.

gravityjack said:
What if my reward for doing it is adorable rat children?

Then you are a much braver man then I and I commend you.

I would like to present you fine people of culture with this rather long fanfiction that depicts exactly the situations mentioned above :

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8908623/1/The-Enfant-Terrible-of-the-Horned-Rat

And its sequel :

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12972264/1/The-Rat-Kingdom

The first one is a very good read, haven't started the second yet, but it should be about the same level of quality.

sparks127 said:
I don't think that would work. I've pondered the idea a lot, as I'm a massive sucker for redemption. In every situation I've thought of there's always one big blockage that keeps anything from going anywhere. C̗̞̪H̬̭A͚̱̦O̢̖̟S̮͎̜̖͚͉͝. It's an inherently evil concept that is as a part of the skaven as their skin. The things females are put through, the chemicals and warpfire they're pumped full of is going to have effects on the offspring, you might be able to selectively breed and dilute them of it, but that would take who knows how many decades, assuming you're not just killed for heresy right off the bat anyways. And all that is ignoring the spiritual connection to the great horned rat that will undoubtably have influence over the entire thing. Making a race inherently evil is boring in my opinion, but having no happiness is what the warhammer universe gets off to, so take it how you will.

Which is EXACTLY why i can't get into warhammer (especially 40K) because everything is written like that. Just a binary it's either evil or warhammers fucked up idea of what 'good' is.
Not dissing anyone who likes warhammer it's just for me personally it hits all the 'This Infuriates The Heart0fInk' buttons.

sparks127 said:
I don't think that would work. I've pondered the idea a lot, as I'm a massive sucker for redemption. In every situation I've thought of there's always one big blockage that keeps anything from going anywhere. C̗̞̪H̬̭A͚̱̦O̢̖̟S̮͎̜̖͚͉͝. It's an inherently evil concept that is as a part of the skaven as their skin. The things females are put through, the chemicals and warpfire they're pumped full of is going to have effects on the offspring, you might be able to selectively breed and dilute them of it, but that would take who knows how many decades, assuming you're not just killed for heresy right off the bat anyways. And all that is ignoring the spiritual connection to the great horned rat that will undoubtably have influence over the entire thing. Making a race inherently evil is boring in my opinion, but having no happiness is what the warhammer universe gets off to, so take it how you will.

And this is all before we even get to the fact that the Great Horned Rat - the central reason why Skaven society is so buttfucked, by the way - would would drag you into the Warp to get raped in every hole you have and several holes you don't by warpstone tentacles for all eternity if you tried running this experiment, as he'd see it as a giant affront for several reasons. Not least of those reasons is that "good Skaven" would almost certainly out-compete the "bad Skaven" if done right (ie, with a few captured breeders), which would deprive the GHR of his favourite form of entertainment; watching his "children" fail constantly.

That said, I think that if you were to isolate Skaven completely - ie, take them to another planet that's beyond the GHR's reach - it could still be done. Technically speaking, ALL sentient races are inherently creatures of Chaos, because Chaos is ultimately just a reflection of life. It's only races who specifically embody the most negative aspects that are inherently evil, and in Warhammer the only races that really do that are the Beastmen and Fimir. The Skaven get close thanks to the Horned Rat, but they're more immersed in Chaos from birth than literally born into Chaos, as unlike the Fimir and Beastmen they do not know Chaos lore instinctively, and they are capable of doubting and even rejecting their god(s) as some privately do (just not openly because they fear him).

heart0fink said:
Which is EXACTLY why i can't get into warhammer (especially 40K) because everything is written like that. Just a binary it's either evil or warhammers fucked up idea of what 'good' is.
Not dissing anyone who likes warhammer it's just for me personally it hits all the 'This Infuriates The Heart0fInk' buttons.

I mean, the thing is that there really isn't a classical form of "good" in Warhammer, not on the level of nations at least. Good individuals exist, but nations are at best a shade of gray, much like in real life. The setting is odd like that. It's patently unrealistic, but GW accidentally made the politics of it rather realistic all things considered; where every nation has gigantic cultural issues holding them back and even the best of them are guilty of horrible atrocities and hilariously idiotic actions that nearly ended in worldwide extinction events and general worldwide cultural unrest.

The closest thing to "good" in Warhammer - both Fantasy and 40k - is "well-meaning and making at least an attempt to cope with and mitigate one's prejudices and cultural idiosyncrasies." This is why the "good" factions have leaders like Karl Franz, Leouen Leouencoeur, Thorgrim Grudgebearer, and Teclis. They all embody the idea that "good" isn't realistically about being good so much as it's about recognizing the flaws of you and your culture and doing all you can to improve them, despite knowing it will never be perfect. Especially Thorgrim and Teclis.

heart0fink said:
Which is EXACTLY why i can't get into warhammer (especially 40K) because everything is written like that. Just a binary it's either evil or warhammers fucked up idea of what 'good' is.
Not dissing anyone who likes warhammer it's just for me personally it hits all the 'This Infuriates The Heart0fInk' buttons.

It's grimdark, most of the games that come from it, video or tabletop, are strategy-based war games. Morality isn't important, so it's not even factored into the equation. In 40k, chaos and tyranids are so horrid that the abysmal state of Imperium is the only thing humanity can cling onto for survival. Also everything NarglFargl said.

One idea I've found fascinating with Skaven is the what-if of what if their species ended up being created closer to humanity and, over time, (with much attempted extermination) they eventually, gruellingly ended up in a state of symbiosis?

Even canon Skaven would likely end up in a positive relationship with humans under the right circumstances. Skaven are followers by nature who have a ridiculously strong instinct to flock to strong leaders. Humans are naturally stronger, faster, tougher, and braver than Skaven. If a canon Skaven was able to get past the lack of fur, they'd probably cling to a human adventurer (figuratively and literally) for dear life.

narglfargl said:
And this is all before we even get to the fact that the Great Horned Rat - the central reason why Skaven society is so buttfucked, by the way - would would drag you into the Warp to get raped in every hole you have and several holes you don't by warpstone tentacles for all eternity if you tried running this experiment, as he'd see it as a giant affront for several reasons. Not least of those reasons is that "good Skaven" would almost certainly out-compete the "bad Skaven" if done right (ie, with a few captured breeders), which would deprive the GHR of his favourite form of entertainment; watching his "children" fail constantly.

That said, I think that if you were to isolate Skaven completely - ie, take them to another planet that's beyond the GHR's reach - it could still be done. Technically speaking, ALL sentient races are inherently creatures of Chaos, because Chaos is ultimately just a reflection of life. It's only races who specifically embody the most negative aspects that are inherently evil, and in Warhammer the only races that really do that are the Beastmen and Fimir. The Skaven get close thanks to the Horned Rat, but they're more immersed in Chaos from birth than literally born into Chaos, as unlike the Fimir and Beastmen they do not know Chaos lore instinctively, and they are capable of doubting and even rejecting their god(s) as some privately do (just not openly because they fear him).

I mean, the thing is that there really isn't a classical form of "good" in Warhammer, not on the level of nations at least. Good individuals exist, but nations are at best a shade of gray, much like in real life. The setting is odd like that. It's patently unrealistic, but GW accidentally made the politics of it rather realistic all things considered; where every nation has gigantic cultural issues holding them back and even the best of them are guilty of horrible atrocities and hilariously idiotic actions that nearly ended in worldwide extinction events and general worldwide cultural unrest.

The closest thing to "good" in Warhammer - both Fantasy and 40k - is "well-meaning and making at least an attempt to cope with and mitigate one's prejudices and cultural idiosyncrasies." This is why the "good" factions have leaders like Karl Franz, Leouen Leouencoeur, Thorgrim Grudgebearer, and Teclis. They all embody the idea that "good" isn't realistically about being good so much as it's about recognizing the flaws of you and your culture and doing all you can to improve them, despite knowing it will never be perfect. Especially Thorgrim and Teclis.

It's not even that for me. Having a ambiguously grey nations n shit is good and works well. Its just that in the warhammer universe (again mostly 40K) those scales tend to be tripped towards insane zealotry to the point where it goes into 'no wiggle room' as far as characters go, like the Skaven. I mean the fucking "Heresy!!" meme spawned up because of their unmoving fanaticism in the 40K universe. At least from my outside looking in point of view.

heart0fink said:
It's not even that for me. Having a ambiguously grey nations n shit is good and works well. Its just that in the warhammer universe (again mostly 40K) those scales tend to be tripped towards insane zealotry to the point where it goes into 'no wiggle room' as far as characters go, like the Skaven. I mean the fucking "Heresy!!" meme spawned up because of their unmoving fanaticism in the 40K universe. At least from my outside looking in point of view.

The "heresy" meme is also an extreme exaggeration. Rogue Traders are a thing in 40k; individuals with vast resources whose entire job is to trade and engage in diplomacy with xenos, and even Inquisitors are known to deal in xenos artifacts from time to time. There are also several recorded instances of even Space Marines teaming up with aliens, albeit usually only briefly. Religious beliefs are also remarkably diverse in the Imperium. Part of the reason Chaos cults are able to start under the radar on some worlds is by masquerading as harmless Animism, which in turn implies that Imperial authorities have no issue with Animist beliefs. And interpretations of who the Emperor is run the gamut, with the Ecclesiarchy being surprisingly tolerant about what different worlds believe in. A lot of times people on newly colonized worlds are allowed to continue worshipping as they always have, with the Ecclesiarchy just labeling their gods as another interpretation of the Emperor.

It's an even bigger exaggeration in Warhammer Fantasy, where humans openly engage with nonhuman races (particularly elves, dwarfs, and ogres) all the time as a general rule. The only things they're particularly zealous about exterminating is mutation (which, while a bit on the unfairly zealous side, is still 99% justified) and beastmen (which is ENTIRELY justified given how beastmen and skaven have always treated literally everyone who isn't them).

Yeah, Warhammer Fantasy is NOT Warhammer 40K. There's no absolute overriding mandate towards grimdarkness -- even the idea that Chaos was absolutely destined to win was a relatively late addition to the franchise (and at any rate, prophecies get defied all the fucking time).

You could absolutely get a group of Skaven with a Rat Experiment that wasn't as shitty and fascist as the regular Skaven are, and probably even get human society to reasonably interact with them if you do it carefully enough. But what's REALLY interesting is that because of how the Horned Rat works, that might actually change the way the Horned Rat IS if you can get enough non-shitty Skaven.

I fucking love Warhammer Fantasy. Whenever you're not talking about direct purestrain Chaos it's so cool, and especially its mechanics of divinity and magic are fascinating.

The Joke is they're both lying!
Not that such skaven don't exist but given how skaven society works... well...the nice ones tend to wind up as food, or meat-shields for the sneaky cunning ones.

and that was how the burmecian born

bakeneko said:
I think 1d4chan brought this idea up, but it's speculated that skaven are similar to the rat utopia experiment, so theoretically if you were to remove some skaven children from their home and raise them in a nice, wide, opened area where they don't have to compete for space, resources, or worry about being killed constantly it would be possible for them to turn out ok, however the difficulty to do this and the fact it would have so little reward to it besides just proving it could be done makes it unlikely.

I believe the Black Hunger also really prevents the Skaven from being anything other than monsters

Funny thing is, this is kinda lore accurate.

warhammer adventures has a skaven who's still an antagonist, but is less of an asshole than most skaven, and prefers human clothes and behavior over skaven stuff

lacergunn said:
Funny thing is, this is kinda lore accurate.

warhammer adventures has a skaven who's still an antagonist, but is less of an asshole than most skaven, and prefers human clothes and behavior over skaven stuff

I do like the idea of Skaven humaniboos. "It is not-not a phase-obsession, broodmother!"

Lore-accurate or not, the idea of there being good Skaven because they didn't grow up in their horrific society is a very appealing idea to me, especially as a reflection on real life. Real life rats get a really bad rap for being disease carriers and living in sewers and spoiling food storage, but domesticated pet rats are some of the friendliest, cleanliest, intelligent pets we can get. I think it's a cool idea worth exploring.

paxia said:
Lore-accurate or not, the idea of there being good Skaven because they didn't grow up in their horrific society is a very appealing idea to me, especially as a reflection on real life. Real life rats get a really bad rap for being disease carriers and living in sewers and spoiling food storage, but domesticated pet rats are some of the friendliest, cleanliest, intelligent pets we can get. I think it's a cool idea worth exploring.

Technically there's no reason there can't be a good Skaven, Age of Sigmar--Yes, yes you may boo me--has there being good Beastmen In Hysh that were killed by Elves, dwarfs and humans before Sigmar came around.