So Leo has no sympathy even for the newly blind. Another flaw for the knights of life.

As for Tristan I hope he becomes Nigel's first friend. He might be the only one who get past that walls Nigel built around himself. And they do have the potential to make the other better.

I can see Nigel's spirit breaking. I hope this doesn't break him completely. This is probably the worst day in his life, Ironic that it's the day he will become a knight. (The day he's wanted to happen for so long.) I'm not sure he even wants to be one anymore, The tree might have told Nigel to never give up but this might be the thing that makes Nigel give up.

I kinda hope he doesn't meet with Toby, after such a traumatic experience he might say something he will regret later. And Nigel and Toby should meet when they're both ready. Which Nigel clearly isn't.

I still hope Nigel gets the best ending.

I think Nigel and Tristan will be friends
Nigel will have someone he can trust and Tristan might become more assertive.

chronocrosser said:
So Leo has no sympathy even for the newly blind. Another flaw for the knights of life.

As for Tristan I hope he becomes Nigel's first friend. He might be the only one who get past that walls Nigel built around himself. And they do have the potential to make the other better.

I can see Nigel's spirit breaking. I hope this doesn't break him completely. This is probably the worst day in his life, Ironic that it's the day he will become a knight. (The day he's wanted to happen for so long.) I'm not sure he even wants to be one anymore, The tree might have told Nigel to never give up but this might be the thing that makes Nigel give up.

I kinda hope he doesn't meet with Toby, after such a traumatic experience he might say something he will regret later. And Nigel and Toby should meet when they're both ready. Which Nigel clearly isn't.

I still hope Nigel gets the best ending.

I honestly hope him being blind is only temporary, And that he will get his sight back when he learns his lessons. Otherwise I don't think Nigel will ever forgive Luna even after this is all over.

nofallouthero said:
I think Nigel and Tristan will be friends
Nigel will have someone he can trust and Tristan might become more assertive.

I wonder if that was always meant to be that case. If so, how do you think they would have met if they did not stray from the path?

"Whoreson" is so accurate, considering how much of a bitch his birthgiver (who's also a guardian) is.

llollt said:
[...]he's still an ass entirely of his own volition.

That's like saying people with depression are depressed of their own volition. Children are incredibly sensitive to having their entire life ripped out from under them and without anyone giving him a new life, there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell that Nigel would have turned out ok.

not_that_person said:
"Whoreson" is so accurate, considering how much of a bitch his birthgiver (who's also a guardian) is.

That's like saying people with depression are depressed of their own volition. Children are incredibly sensitive to having their entire life ripped out from under them and without anyone giving him a new life, there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell that Nigel would have turned out ok.

As someone with depression, that's such a shitty argument. That's no different then people who let their lives fall down around their ears and refuse to do anything because they have depression. It's a fucking excuse. It's been beaten to death that Nigel has had countless opportunities to better himself, to move on, to make a life for himself, anything. But he absolute *refuses* to. And no one. Not Luna, not his shitty parents, but no one is to blame for that but him.

You only get to blame a rough past for so long, before the amount of time and effort it takes to cry that river is significantly more than the amount it'd take for you to come down off the cross, and use the wood to build a bridge and get the fuck over it.

freedom_to_be_me said:
I honestly hope him being blind is only temporary, And that he will get his sight back when he learns his lessons. Otherwise I don't think Nigel will ever forgive Luna even after this is all over.

There's a VERY strong implication that it's very temporary thing. Like, under 24 hours. Luna said 'he won't be staying long.' And Tristan didn't succeed in stealing from her, so she has nothing to lock him up for. Unless it's to keep him from wandering off a cliff. To me, it comes off as a 'learn to appreciate the things you have, instead of coveting what you don't.' lesson.

Honestly, it's a good lesson to teach yourself over a long weekend. Remove one of your senses over 24 hours. Blindfold yourself, wear some noise canceling headphones, or just don't speak. It really is a slap in the face when you're feeling like shit, and you realize how blessed you are just to have all five senses, plus movement, plus speech.

Well seems siral_exan theory as well as mine have seemed to come to fruition, also friendship.

I get the whole "blessing in disguise from an enigmatic donor with greater designs" trope. But considering how devastating the first round that Luna inflicted on Nigel was, and that the gamble she made in it failed, a second one seems disproportionate. It's not good characterisation for a wise and benevolent goddess. Which is an aberration for Zummeng considering the strong character focus of their other works, but then, the dynamics aren't usually this complicated.

lurkmore said:
I get the whole "blessing in disguise from an enigmatic donor with greater designs" trope. But considering how devastating the first round that Luna inflicted on Nigel was, and that the gamble she made in it failed, a second one seems disproportionate. It's not good characterisation for a wise and benevolent goddess. Which is an aberration for Zummeng considering the strong character focus of their other works, but then, the dynamics aren't usually this complicated.

At this point, I don't think it's a question of how good is the tree, I think it's a question of how bad is the corruption to have her justify doing these kinds of things. Because things like this aren't generally done if the threat isn't insurmountable.

Time for a...JAILBREAK!!!

mrblack said:
As someone with depression, that's such a shitty argument. That's no different then people who let their lives fall down around their ears and refuse to do anything because they have depression. It's a fucking excuse. It's been beaten to death that Nigel has had countless opportunities to better himself, to move on, to make a life for himself, anything. But he absolute *refuses* to. And no one. Not Luna, not his shitty parents, but no one is to blame for that but him.

It sounds like you don't know what depression is. It's way, way worse than merely feeling 'sad' about your current situation. It is an emotionally and mentally crippling situation that often requires medication to stave off the symptoms. Even then, there are cases so extreme, that even the medicine isn't enough to save people.

Depression is a horrible condition which drains your energy, motivation, even your sense of self worth. You don't just fail to seek out help; if left untreated for too long, you can start to believe that you don't deserve to be helped.

People who look at somebody going through depression and tells them to 'cheer up' or something equally optimistic like that need to realize that the problem is way more serious than somebody just having a shitty week.

mrblack said:

There's a VERY strong implication that it's very temporary thing. Like, under 24 hours. Luna said 'he won't be staying long.' And Tristan didn't succeed in stealing from her, so she has nothing to lock him up for.

So if somebody broke into your home, only to be caught red handed before they could make off with your valuables, you wouldn't press charges?

mrblack said:
As someone with depression, that's such a shitty argument. That's no different then people who let their lives fall down around their ears and refuse to do anything because they have depression. It's a fucking excuse. It's been beaten to death that Nigel has had countless opportunities to better himself, to move on, to make a life for himself, anything. But he absolute *refuses* to. And no one. Not Luna, not his shitty parents, but no one is to blame for that but him.

You only get to blame a rough past for so long, before the amount of time and effort it takes to cry that river is significantly more than the amount it'd take for you to come down off the cross, and use the wood to build a bridge and get the fuck over it.

There's a VERY strong implication that it's very temporary thing. Like, under 24 hours. Luna said 'he won't be staying long.' And Tristan didn't succeed in stealing from her, so she has nothing to lock him up for. Unless it's to keep him from wandering off a cliff. To me, it comes off as a 'learn to appreciate the things you have, instead of coveting what you don't.' lesson.

Honestly, it's a good lesson to teach yourself over a long weekend. Remove one of your senses over 24 hours. Blindfold yourself, wear some noise canceling headphones, or just don't speak. It really is a slap in the face when you're feeling like shit, and you realize how blessed you are just to have all five senses, plus movement, plus speech.

People who say Nigel is responsible for his situation always seem to ignore (or downplay) that he was essentially kicked out of his home as a child by neglectful parents, practically ignored and gaslighted by the literal goddess he was groomed to serve, by being told he was lacking something (while never bothering to tell him what he was lacking). You can't really blame a child abandoned by his "village" for hating everyone who did nothing to help him when he needed it.

mrblack said:
As someone with depression, that's such a shitty argument. That's no different then people who let their lives fall down around their ears and refuse to do anything because they have depression. It's a fucking excuse. It's been beaten to death that Nigel has had countless opportunities to better himself, to move on, to make a life for himself, anything. But he absolute *refuses* to. And no one. Not Luna, not his shitty parents, but no one is to blame for that but him.

You only get to blame a rough past for so long, before the amount of time and effort it takes to cry that river is significantly more than the amount it'd take for you to come down off the cross, and use the wood to build a bridge and get the fuck over it.

Oh, you have diagnosed depression? Then I assume you also got therapy and maybe from people who care about you?

Well Nigel had none of that. The very concept of mental health probably doesn't even exist in the world of this comic yet. Nigel doesn't even know that he has a problem and he doesn't have any help or of any kind.

Do you know what happened to people with psychological problems before mental health was acknowledged as a serious matter? A lot of people suffered. A lot of people died. A lot of people coped with bad habits.

Nigel is the latter. He is hurting because his family abandoned him. In his mind he believes that the world is inherently unfair. That the effort he put into his training didn't matter. He thinks that only results matter and it doesn't matter how you achieve your goal, be it through effort or trickery. So he lives, not by working, but by stealing. He wants to become a knight, not through great effort or bettering himself, but by stealing one of the scarves that mark the knights.

llollt said:
Probably not the first time he has to deal with Nigel. For what it's worth, i'd say his mother deserves it as well.

He really does not deserve it. He was dealt a bad lot in life, sure, but he's still an ass entirely of his own volition.

A child not embraced by the village will burn it down just to feel its warmth. Yeah, he's angry, and any one would be in his position.

rabid_rabbids said:
A child not embraced by the village will burn it down just to feel its warmth. Yeah, he's angry, and any one would be in his position.

Y'know. Given how angry he is here, he may just take the first hand to him the proverbial torch...And that could lead to some problems...

rabid_rabbids said:
by being told he was lacking something (while never bothering to tell him what he was lacking)

Do people keep saying this just because Nigel was acting clueless in the latest scene and it's hard to go back in the pool and check for yourself?

This really shouldn't be news by now, but again: Nigel. Doesn't. Listen. From everything we've seen so far, it's impossible to get it through his skull that he's wrong about something - it either gets ignored, fuels his resentment, or some combination of the two.

Hear me out. None of the main cast are knights yet. Nor have we seen the other candidates and none of the cast know they are candidates. Maybe Leo will have the same treatment later, that du to his pride and loyalty (be it blind loyalty) may be tested later and maybe he will apologize. I get the feeling everyone is gonna get the stick on how there personality is and what needs to change.

chestercat said:
Do people keep saying this just because Nigel was acting clueless in the latest scene and it's hard to go back in the pool and check for yourself?

This really shouldn't be news by now, but again: Nigel. Doesn't. Listen. From everything we've seen so far, it's impossible to get it through his skull that he's wrong about something - it either gets ignored, fuels his resentment, or some combination of the two.

Problem. If the only reason he was denied being a guardian was because he was being groomed to be one (IE he didn't choose to become one of his own free will) why did his brother become one? You can't really come up with a reason without making assumptions without evidence. And it also ignores the fact that the trees adopted daughter is also a guardian, and she was adopted specifically because she had some inherited powers from her family. Sounds a lot like she was being groomed for the role too.

Book 0, page 59, Luna: "There's just one thing you need to do - find the honest answer to why you want this."
Book 0, page 64, Luna: "*sigh* Okay, let me spell it out for you - you just want it because your parents want it from you, you're not actually committed to protecting others. And that's not enough."
Book 1, page 36, Nigel: "WHY WON'T YOU TELL ME WHY YOU DIDN'T MAKE ME A GUARDIAN!!?!!1!"
Book 1, page 36, Luna: "...because you need to actually want to protect others?"
Book 1, page 40, Rabid Rabbids: "WHY WON'T SHE TELL HIM WHY SHE DIDN'T MAKE HIM A GUARDIAN!!?!!1!"

I don't have superpowers, dude. If you won't even put in the minimum effort on reading comprehension to see that your "problem" was already directly addressed on the page I linked, I don't have a way to make you understand.

chestercat said:
Book 0, page 59, Luna: "There's just one thing you need to do - find the honest answer to why you want this."
Book 0, page 64, Luna: "*sigh* Okay, let me spell it out for you - you just want it because your parents want it from you, you're not actually committed to protecting others. And that's not enough."
Book 1, page 36, Nigel: "WHY WON'T YOU TELL ME WHY YOU DIDN'T MAKE ME A GUARDIAN!!?!!1!"
Book 1, page 36, Luna: "...because you need to actually want to protect others?"
Book 1, page 40, Rabid Rabbids: "WHY WON'T SHE TELL HIM WHY SHE DIDN'T MAKE HIM A GUARDIAN!!?!!1!"

I don't have superpowers, dude. If you won't even put in the minimum effort on reading comprehension to see that your "problem" was already directly addressed on the page I linked, I don't have a way to make you understand.

Again, several people Luna made guardians have dubious motivation and commitment. Leopold routinely displays cruel behavior towards everyone, from family to his fellow guardians, Miralle is unprofessional, frequently blowing off training and half-assing her job, which doesn't really sound like someone who wants to "protect others". I was wrong about Luna not telling Nigel the reason she didn't make him a guardian, but saying it's because he "didn't care about protecting people" doesn't work when you have Leopold outright say the reason he wants to be the strongest is for revenge. None of the main guardians we're shown behave any better than Nigel himself. They're arrogant, lazy and neglectful, constantly fighting with each other.

Man, those goalposts sure are speedy. :D We started on "gaslighting!", went on to "let those who were *not* raised to be guardians cast the first stone", now we're on "others' character flaws mean they don't actually want to protect anyone and Nigel is just as qualified" - I can't wait to see where this magical journey will take us next.

rabid_rabbids said:
Again, several people Luna made guardians have dubious motivation and commitment. Leopold routinely displays cruel behavior towards everyone, from family to his fellow guardians, Miralle is unprofessional, frequently blowing off training and half-assing her job, which doesn't really sound like someone who wants to "protect others". I was wrong about Luna not telling Nigel the reason she didn't make him a guardian, but saying it's because he "didn't care about protecting people" doesn't work when you have Leopold outright say the reason he wants to be the strongest is for revenge. None of the main guardians we're shown behave any better than Nigel himself. They're arrogant, lazy and neglectful, constantly fighting with each other.

I too don't understand how this works. For some reason Nigel is a bad apple while there are a literall goddamn bucket of those apple getting turned into pies. Or was it all Tree's plan all along? Is she this world Tzeench or what?

chestercat said:
Man, those goalposts sure are speedy. :D We started on "gaslighting!", went on to "let those who were *not* raised to be guardians cast the first stone", now we're on "others' character flaws mean they don't actually want to protect anyone and Nigel is just as qualified" - I can't wait to see where this magical journey will take us next.

Nigel became an arrogant jerk AFTER he was rejected and had everything he ever loved or believed in stripped from him.

As for the people who managed to get accepted into the role of guardianship... what's their excuse?

Alright, ing a new argument in the internet that I’ll probably won’t finish, and more likely I’ll be ignored… Also, I really apologize for this wall of text.

So, a few disclaimers first: I have been following this comic partially, mostly for this argument in particular as I find it interesting, not for the comic itself. Not saying the comic is bad or anything, just making it clear in case I get some things wrong.

As I said, I had been following this discussion for a while, Trying to understand both sides, but… With no intention to offend, those defending Luna had been having some troubles making compelling arguments. I might be a bit biased, considering I’m seeing myself more on the side of Nigel here, so let me explain.

-First of all, none of the people in favor of Nigel justify his evil, and dangerous, actions. At best, they are explaining why it makes sense he would go to such lengths in the first place. To say that they are defending his actions is, at best, ignorant, and at worse, in bad faith.

-Second, and this is tackling some of the main arguments I have seen those who defend Luna make, that is to say “He hasn’t matured”… That’s because he never had the chance to mature. He was pretty much abandoned as a child, and made to fend off by himself until now, after being traumatized and having his whole world destroyed in what felt like an instant, with nothing to replace all that he had lost. In order to grow up one needs to have interactions with other people, positive interactions that is, not just any, and from what I can tell, he didn't get that basic need.

-Third, Many say he’s just being an unreasonable brat… But his whole situation is pretty much unreasonable to begin with. Again, He was abandoned by everyone he relied on, and, in his own view, betrayed by the one he was told to idolize, and now was left alone in the world, to fend of by himself, all the while he believes a literal living god that everyone loves hates him in particular, all the while everything surrounding him reinforces the view than no one even slightly cares for him and wouldn’t mind it if he himself just suddenly fell and broke his neck. He might have had to forage and steal food, just to keep himself going. He maybe even suffering malnourishment and lost considerable amounts of body mass due to not having time to train, and ing days where he probably never got the chance to get proper food. As far as I know, no one took him under their care, so it’s also likely that he had to sleep in the open, exposed to the elements, and to anything or anyone who happens to have ill intentions towards him, all while believing that no one would care if anything bad happened to him, and all of this, is not ing for the illness and diseases he might have suffered this whole time.

-Fourth, why didn’t he found a job that would have helped him survive, and would have given him a distraction from his anger? More than likely because he was never taught to. His parents had prepared him to excel as a guardian. Surviving, let alone understanding, society and its people was probably never in the scope of his training and the teachings they gave to him. But yeah, after some time he would have learned about jobs, why didn’t he think of starting once he learnt of them? Well, plenty of reasons, but the main one: Would you hire him? He’s already known to be a thief, and an unstable one at that, that alone pretty much makes him unlikely to get a job. Now add in the fact that he openly hates the Tree, a deity that is beloved by all, and you can forget about anyone being willing to hire him.

-Fifth, and this might sound a bit personal, but still related to him being unreasonable. He’s going through a lot of problems, like too many to keep track of. Both psychological and physical, and as far as I know, he hasn’t have help from anyone, let alone a little bit of mercy or comion (except from the Tree, and from his point of view, it would be like the person who burned your home and killed your dog were to give you some spare change and good wishes). He's insane and desperate, clinging to whatever he can find to keep himself going. I’m fairly sure very few here would be able to go through even half the shit he himself went through and remain sane, let alone go through all the stuff he himself probably went through. Also, while we are at it: Blinding someone who is already really fucked, is VERY MUCH a dick move, and unlikely to work for the better of them.

I’m probably missing some other points, and I’m really sorry if I did, but this is what I gathered in my limited time.

TLDR: Niguel all actions, while not justified, are reasonable. On his own point of view, the whole world is against him, and in a certain way it is, and he lashes out in an attempt to survive. Being neglected and abandoned as a child the moment he failed to measure up to the Tree’s seemingly random requirements to be a guardian, and having nothing, not even the parents he loved so much, to fall back to, left him with nothing, going from a mansion to living in the wilderness, and surviving as best as he could with what little he knew.

Now, I don’t know what the author has planned, or to what extent the Tree’s powers go, but from my point of view, the Tree’s to blame for all the current actions Niguel has taken. She could have easily have sent one of her followers, disguised as a random person, to try to show Niguel comion and to show him a better path, but either she didn’t think of it, or she willingly chose not to. Now if she allowed all of this to happen because she had some sort of master plan that involved all of this happening and everything working out for the better… then, as an amateur writer, I’m just going to call bullshit on that one.

I think it's very telling that she acted this cruelly soon after she was revealed to be weaker than we've seen her before.

It's really quite impressive to see how much work - vindictive fanfic, armchair psychiatric diagnoses, paragraphs of extrapolated hardships - the comment section is putting in on papering over one simple thing: we don't actually see Nigel wanting the work of being a guardian at any point in the story. Even when the work involved is something as simple as asking himself "Why do I want this">explicit requirement Luna has for becoming a guardian - presumably there are more, we don't have a list. We definitely know that guardians aren't expected to be perfect paragons of virtue - plenty of flawed examples we can point at, Nigel's parents not least among them.

With that in mind, can you make a positive case for why Nigel should have been made a guardian, either as he is now or when he originally tried out - but on his own merits, without trying to put down everyone around him to try and make him stand just a little taller in comparison?

chestercat said:
It's really quite impressive to see how much work - vindictive fanfic, armchair psychiatric diagnoses, paragraphs of extrapolated hardships - the comment section is putting in on papering over one simple thing: we don't actually see Nigel wanting the work of being a guardian at any point in the story. Even when the work involved is something as simple as asking himself "Why do I want this">explicit requirement Luna has for becoming a guardian - presumably there are more, we don't have a list. We definitely know that guardians aren't expected to be perfect paragons of virtue - plenty of flawed examples we can point at, Nigel's parents not least among them.

With that in mind, can you make a positive case for why Nigel should have been made a guardian, either as he is now or when he originally tried out - but on his own merits, without trying to put down everyone around him to try and make him stand just a little taller in comparison?

I don't think most people here are saying that Nigel SHOULD be a Guardian since he obviously hasn't earned it. But he does deserve some measure of comion for his situation that doesn't seem to have been granted to him. Perhaps Luna could have intervened AFTER a period of time when Nigel was showing no sign of improvement? Though she, as the Goddess probably shouldn't intervene in every single incident that mortals have, Nigel was indirectly affected by her choices, and his parents are important of her political strata. A previously posted idea about her sending help in the form of a comionate 'stranger' to help mentor and guide Nigel onto a different path in life, one that may have led back to true guardianship, was a good idea.

That being said, at the end of the day though - I'm fascinated by the direction this story is going, because the very fact that people are typing multi-length paragraphs in the comment sections debating the moral ramifications of a character's actions means that we ARE all emotionally invested in this story and its characters. I'm sure Zummeng knows what she's doing and I'm very eager to see how this scenario plays out.

zaitsiev said:
Alright, ing a new argument in the internet that I’ll probably won’t finish, and more likely I’ll be ignored… Also, I really apologize for this wall of text.

So, a few disclaimers first: I have been following this comic partially, mostly for this argument in particular as I find it interesting, not for the comic itself. Not saying the comic is bad or anything, just making it clear in case I get some things wrong.

As I said, I had been following this discussion for a while, Trying to understand both sides, but… With no intention to offend, those defending Luna had been having some troubles making compelling arguments. I might be a bit biased, considering I’m seeing myself more on the side of Nigel here, so let me explain.

-First of all, none of the people in favor of Nigel justify his evil, and dangerous, actions. At best, they are explaining why it makes sense he would go to such lengths in the first place. To say that they are defending his actions is, at best, ignorant, and at worse, in bad faith.

-Second, and this is tackling some of the main arguments I have seen those who defend Luna make, that is to say “He hasn’t matured”… That’s because he never had the chance to mature. He was pretty much abandoned as a child, and made to fend off by himself until now, after being traumatized and having his whole world destroyed in what felt like an instant, with nothing to replace all that he had lost. In order to grow up one needs to have interactions with other people, positive interactions that is, not just any, and from what I can tell, he didn't get that basic need.

-Third, Many say he’s just being an unreasonable brat… But his whole situation is pretty much unreasonable to begin with. Again, He was abandoned by everyone he relied on, and, in his own view, betrayed by the one he was told to idolize, and now was left alone in the world, to fend of by himself, all the while he believes a literal living god that everyone loves hates him in particular, all the while everything surrounding him reinforces the view than no one even slightly cares for him and wouldn’t mind it if he himself just suddenly fell and broke his neck. He might have had to forage and steal food, just to keep himself going. He maybe even suffering malnourishment and lost considerable amounts of body mass due to not having time to train, and ing days where he probably never got the chance to get proper food. As far as I know, no one took him under their care, so it’s also likely that he had to sleep in the open, exposed to the elements, and to anything or anyone who happens to have ill intentions towards him, all while believing that no one would care if anything bad happened to him, and all of this, is not ing for the illness and diseases he might have suffered this whole time.

-Fourth, why didn’t he found a job that would have helped him survive, and would have given him a distraction from his anger? More than likely because he was never taught to. His parents had prepared him to excel as a guardian. Surviving, let alone understanding, society and its people was probably never in the scope of his training and the teachings they gave to him. But yeah, after some time he would have learned about jobs, why didn’t he think of starting once he learnt of them? Well, plenty of reasons, but the main one: Would you hire him? He’s already known to be a thief, and an unstable one at that, that alone pretty much makes him unlikely to get a job. Now add in the fact that he openly hates the Tree, a deity that is beloved by all, and you can forget about anyone being willing to hire him.

-Fifth, and this might sound a bit personal, but still related to him being unreasonable. He’s going through a lot of problems, like too many to keep track of. Both psychological and physical, and as far as I know, he hasn’t have help from anyone, let alone a little bit of mercy or comion (except from the Tree, and from his point of view, it would be like the person who burned your home and killed your dog were to give you some spare change and good wishes). He's insane and desperate, clinging to whatever he can find to keep himself going. I’m fairly sure very few here would be able to go through even half the shit he himself went through and remain sane, let alone go through all the stuff he himself probably went through. Also, while we are at it: Blinding someone who is already really fucked, is VERY MUCH a dick move, and unlikely to work for the better of them.

I’m probably missing some other points, and I’m really sorry if I did, but this is what I gathered in my limited time.

TLDR: Niguel all actions, while not justified, are reasonable. On his own point of view, the whole world is against him, and in a certain way it is, and he lashes out in an attempt to survive. Being neglected and abandoned as a child the moment he failed to measure up to the Tree’s seemingly random requirements to be a guardian, and having nothing, not even the parents he loved so much, to fall back to, left him with nothing, going from a mansion to living in the wilderness, and surviving as best as he could with what little he knew.

Now, I don’t know what the author has planned, or to what extent the Tree’s powers go, but from my point of view, the Tree’s to blame for all the current actions Niguel has taken. She could have easily have sent one of her followers, disguised as a random person, to try to show Niguel comion and to show him a better path, but either she didn’t think of it, or she willingly chose not to. Now if she allowed all of this to happen because she had some sort of master plan that involved all of this happening and everything working out for the better… then, as an amateur writer, I’m just going to call bullshit on that one.

I think you nailed the overall problem here on the head. In the whole discourse, both Luna and Nigel have their stalwart defenders but there are many more factors that you mentioned. Where was everyone else in regards to Nigel? Sure, he does act in a very spiteful and vindictive way but with what happened, you can't just "get over it and get your shit together" without any kind of and it just seems that after he lashed out against the ToL after his parents abandoned him, he was just marked by everyone as the "villain" and was refused any kind of helping hand ever since. What reason would he have for reaching out? What would make him believe anyone would want to see him get better? At that point he is drowning and grasping for any kind of hand to pull him out of the water and if things go badly, that hand will belong to Rah-Jan

rabid_rabbids said:
Again, several people Luna made guardians have dubious motivation and commitment. Leopold routinely displays cruel behavior towards everyone, from family to his fellow guardians, Miralle is unprofessional, frequently blowing off training and half-assing her job, which doesn't really sound like someone who wants to "protect others". I was wrong about Luna not telling Nigel the reason she didn't make him a guardian, but saying it's because he "didn't care about protecting people" doesn't work when you have Leopold outright say the reason he wants to be the strongest is for revenge. None of the main guardians we're shown behave any better than Nigel himself. They're arrogant, lazy and neglectful, constantly fighting with each other.

zaitsiev said:
TLDR: Niguel all actions, while not justified, are reasonable. On his own point of view, the whole world is against him, and in a certain way it is, and he lashes out in an attempt to survive. Being neglected and abandoned as a child the moment he failed to measure up to the Tree’s seemingly random requirements to be a guardian, and having nothing, not even the parents he loved so much, to fall back to, left him with nothing, going from a mansion to living in the wilderness, and surviving as best as he could with what little he knew.

Now, I don’t know what the author has planned, or to what extent the Tree’s powers go, but from my point of view, the Tree’s to blame for all the current actions Niguel has taken. She could have easily have sent one of her followers, disguised as a random person, to try to show Niguel comion and to show him a better path, but either she didn’t think of it, or she willingly chose not to. Now if she allowed all of this to happen because she had some sort of master plan that involved all of this happening and everything working out for the better… then, as an amateur writer, I’m just going to call bullshit on that one.

clancularia said:
I don't think most people here are saying that Nigel SHOULD be a Guardian since he obviously hasn't earned it. But he does deserve some measure of comion for his situation that doesn't seem to have been granted to him. Perhaps Luna could have intervened AFTER a period of time when Nigel was showing no sign of improvement? Though she, as the Goddess probably shouldn't intervene in every single incident that mortals have, Nigel was indirectly affected by her choices, and his parents are important of her political strata. A previously posted idea about her sending help in the form of a comionate 'stranger' to help mentor and guide Nigel onto a different path in life, one that may have led back to true guardianship, was a good idea.

That being said, at the end of the day though - I'm fascinated by the direction this story is going, because the very fact that people are typing multi-length paragraphs in the comment sections debating the moral ramifications of a character's actions means that we ARE all emotionally invested in this story and its characters. I'm sure Zummeng knows what she's doing and I'm very eager to see how this scenario plays out.

For Luna's powers, one of the patreon Q&As basically said that she's not omniscient; she can only see visions of the future and even that's explicitly mentioned to be becoming increasingly unreliable. Outside of that, she's not a mind-reader. DOES she know about Leo only becoming a Guardian out of spite towards his father and a desire for revenge? The most that's been said about it was in Book 0 where they know he's a dick (and even then, it's mentioned at the very beginning that there's no light without darkness), so we don't know.

The Q&A also kind of addresses the whole "not intervening earlier" part by saying that she makes her decisions with the best intentions with or without the help of her visions. To quote the other relevant part because I'm lazy: "But how can one call their life their own, if someone else has the control over it? Every life is a seed, but all I can do is to water them. I simply cannot force them to sprout. And do not think that young Tristan and Nigel are just some helpless children. They have a stronger heart than most of my guardians. But they have to become even stronger and find their road on their own, because that is the only way they can fulfill their destinies. And no matter how it pains me, all I can do is wait and have faith in them. Because the world will need their strength soon." Whether that's a good explanation/excuse/etc is ultimately up to interpretation until future pages come out.

On Nigel's end, the other Q&A states that he goes out of his way to avoid Toby even though Toby misses him, so I kind of doubt that he would even accept help from strangers if it was offered to him. As an aside, it's also said that Nigel's parents got ripped to pieces offscreen by the chaos beasts, after it was confirmed that they still didn't give a shit about him after he ran away no less, so it's nice to see that karma ultimately bit them in the ass on that end.

werideatdawn said:

The Q&A also kind of addresses the whole "not intervening earlier" part by saying that she makes her decisions with the best intentions with or without the help of her visions. To quote the other relevant part because I'm lazy: "But how can one call their life their own, if someone else has the control over it? Every life is a seed, but all I can do is to water them. I simply cannot force them to sprout. And do not think that young Tristan and Nigel are just some helpless children. They have a stronger heart than most of my guardians. But they have to become even stronger and find their road on their own, because that is the only way they can fulfill their destinies. And no matter how it pains me, all I can do is wait and have faith in them. Because the world will need their strength soon." Whether that's a good explanation/excuse/etc is ultimately up to interpretation until future pages come out.

That has to be one of the most fancy ways of saying "I don't wanna do shit!" If I ever heard one.

I get what Zummeng is trying to do here but she is very sloppy with conveying it. There is a difference between having dominion over someone's life and giving them helpful guidance.

I think Zummeng did a mistake with trying to write a grand epic as her second outing outside porn.

werideatdawn said:
DOES she know about Leo only becoming a Guardian out of spite towards his father and a desire for revenge?

We know he wants to avenge his mother and he's pissed at his father for not doing so, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that these are the only reasons he wanted to be a guardian. (Incidentally, do we know what happened with his parents? I don't that coming up anywhere outside that couple of pages.)

valsion said:
Where was everyone else in regards to Nigel?

Spurned by Nigel himself, for the most part. That's where I have a problem with most of the "everyone should have gone an extra mile for Nigel" arguments; there are clearly plenty of kids in this setting who have had it worse than he has, and unlike them, his troubles are largely a result of his own choices. Which are driven by selfishness, arrogance, and a sense of entitlement. He's a thoroughly flawed character who folded like a house of cards at the first major challenge of his life and has been riding that wave of resentment for not being his parents' Special Kid anymore ever since.

Take Tristan, for example. Clearly worse off than Nigel in every respect. Staying with the gang after Luna encouraged him to strike out on his own? Definitely his choice, definitely worse for him. But a choice based on caring for others and his connection with them. He's frankly just a better person than Nigel, more in need of help, and more receptive to it. But Luna hasn't done more for him than that one mid-robbery pep talk, and I don't see people writing angry rants about what a bitch she is for not adopting him.

chestercat said:
We know he wants to avenge his mother and he's pissed at his father for not doing so, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that these are the only reasons he wanted to be a guardian. (Incidentally, do we know what happened with his parents? I don't that coming up anywhere outside that couple of pages.)

It's not mentioned besides those pages, no. Luna's assessment of him in Book 0 seems to be accurate, at least at the time, but the point was more that Luna likely doesn't know about that major contributing factor.

werideatdawn said:
For Luna's powers, one of the patreon Q&As basically said that she's not omniscient; she can only see visions of the future and even that's explicitly mentioned to be becoming increasingly unreliable. Outside of that, she's not a mind-reader. DOES she know about Leo only becoming a Guardian out of spite towards his father and a desire for revenge? The most that's been said about it was in Book 0 where they know he's a dick (and even then, it's mentioned at the very beginning that there's no light without darkness), so we don't know.

The Q&A also kind of addresses the whole "not intervening earlier" part by saying that she makes her decisions with the best intentions with or without the help of her visions. To quote the other relevant part because I'm lazy: "But how can one call their life their own, if someone else has the control over it? Every life is a seed, but all I can do is to water them. I simply cannot force them to sprout. And do not think that young Tristan and Nigel are just some helpless children. They have a stronger heart than most of my guardians. But they have to become even stronger and find their road on their own, because that is the only way they can fulfill their destinies. And no matter how it pains me, all I can do is wait and have faith in them. Because the world will need their strength soon." Whether that's a good explanation/excuse/etc is ultimately up to interpretation until future pages come out.

On Nigel's end, the other Q&A states that he goes out of his way to avoid Toby even though Toby misses him, so I kind of doubt that he would even accept help from strangers if it was offered to him. As an aside, it's also said that Nigel's parents got ripped to pieces offscreen by the chaos beasts, after it was confirmed that they still didn't give a shit about him after he ran away no less, so it's nice to see that karma ultimately bit them in the ass on that end.

I'm very thankful for this info.

I guess we'll see how it turns out later on, but I pretty much made it clear what my oppinion of this is, and will keep this info in mind for any future comment I may make.

Sadly it seems the "Only one or the other is to blame fully" bandwagon continues. I just hope whatever resolution Zummeng has does not put the blame solely on one of them and does not have Luna turn out to be a complete idiot here or involve just breaking Nigel and making him grovel for forgiveness while being completely humiliated.

chestercat said:
It's really quite impressive to see how much work - vindictive fanfic, armchair psychiatric diagnoses, paragraphs of extrapolated hardships - the comment section is putting in on papering over one simple thing: we don't actually see Nigel wanting the work of being a guardian at any point in the story. Even when the work involved is something as simple as asking himself "Why do I want this">explicit requirement Luna has for becoming a guardian - presumably there are more, we don't have a list. We definitely know that guardians aren't expected to be perfect paragons of virtue - plenty of flawed examples we can point at, Nigel's parents not least among them.

With that in mind, can you make a positive case for why Nigel should have been made a guardian, either as he is now or when he originally tried out - but on his own merits, without trying to put down everyone around him to try and make him stand just a little taller in comparison?

There's a really easy argument to make as to why Luna should make Nigel and others guardians: She's in a losing war. She doesn't have the luxury of being picky, so if someone comes along and says they want to fight, "why" shouldn't be her top priority.

rabid_rabbids said:
There's a really easy argument to make as to why Luna should make Nigel and others guardians: She's in a losing war. She doesn't have the luxury of being picky, so if someone comes along and says they want to fight, "why" shouldn't be her top priority.

You're thinking of a militia, not a divinely-filtered order of protectors. Nigel's character flaws wouldn't be good in a militia either, but at least not explicitly disqualifying - and I suppose I didn't specifically exclude "lower the bar on what being a guardian even means until Nigel can clear it", so, point.

zaitsiev said:
Alright, ing a new argument in the internet that I’ll probably won’t finish, and more likely I’ll be ignored… Also, I really apologize for this wall of text.

So, a few disclaimers first: I have been following this comic partially, mostly for this argument in particular as I find it interesting, not for the comic itself. Not saying the comic is bad or anything, just making it clear in case I get some things wrong.

As I said, I had been following this discussion for a while, Trying to understand both sides, but… With no intention to offend, those defending Luna had been having some troubles making compelling arguments. I might be a bit biased, considering I’m seeing myself more on the side of Nigel here, so let me explain.

-First of all, none of the people in favor of Nigel justify his evil, and dangerous, actions. At best, they are explaining why it makes sense he would go to such lengths in the first place. To say that they are defending his actions is, at best, ignorant, and at worse, in bad faith.

-Second, and this is tackling some of the main arguments I have seen those who defend Luna make, that is to say “He hasn’t matured”… That’s because he never had the chance to mature. He was pretty much abandoned as a child, and made to fend off by himself until now, after being traumatized and having his whole world destroyed in what felt like an instant, with nothing to replace all that he had lost. In order to grow up one needs to have interactions with other people, positive interactions that is, not just any, and from what I can tell, he didn't get that basic need.

-Third, Many say he’s just being an unreasonable brat… But his whole situation is pretty much unreasonable to begin with. Again, He was abandoned by everyone he relied on, and, in his own view, betrayed by the one he was told to idolize, and now was left alone in the world, to fend of by himself, all the while he believes a literal living god that everyone loves hates him in particular, all the while everything surrounding him reinforces the view than no one even slightly cares for him and wouldn’t mind it if he himself just suddenly fell and broke his neck. He might have had to forage and steal food, just to keep himself going. He maybe even suffering malnourishment and lost considerable amounts of body mass due to not having time to train, and ing days where he probably never got the chance to get proper food. As far as I know, no one took him under their care, so it’s also likely that he had to sleep in the open, exposed to the elements, and to anything or anyone who happens to have ill intentions towards him, all while believing that no one would care if anything bad happened to him, and all of this, is not ing for the illness and diseases he might have suffered this whole time.

-Fourth, why didn’t he found a job that would have helped him survive, and would have given him a distraction from his anger? More than likely because he was never taught to. His parents had prepared him to excel as a guardian. Surviving, let alone understanding, society and its people was probably never in the scope of his training and the teachings they gave to him. But yeah, after some time he would have learned about jobs, why didn’t he think of starting once he learnt of them? Well, plenty of reasons, but the main one: Would you hire him? He’s already known to be a thief, and an unstable one at that, that alone pretty much makes him unlikely to get a job. Now add in the fact that he openly hates the Tree, a deity that is beloved by all, and you can forget about anyone being willing to hire him.

-Fifth, and this might sound a bit personal, but still related to him being unreasonable. He’s going through a lot of problems, like too many to keep track of. Both psychological and physical, and as far as I know, he hasn’t have help from anyone, let alone a little bit of mercy or comion (except from the Tree, and from his point of view, it would be like the person who burned your home and killed your dog were to give you some spare change and good wishes). He's insane and desperate, clinging to whatever he can find to keep himself going. I’m fairly sure very few here would be able to go through even half the shit he himself went through and remain sane, let alone go through all the stuff he himself probably went through. Also, while we are at it: Blinding someone who is already really fucked, is VERY MUCH a dick move, and unlikely to work for the better of them.

I’m probably missing some other points, and I’m really sorry if I did, but this is what I gathered in my limited time.

TLDR: Niguel all actions, while not justified, are reasonable. On his own point of view, the whole world is against him, and in a certain way it is, and he lashes out in an attempt to survive. Being neglected and abandoned as a child the moment he failed to measure up to the Tree’s seemingly random requirements to be a guardian, and having nothing, not even the parents he loved so much, to fall back to, left him with nothing, going from a mansion to living in the wilderness, and surviving as best as he could with what little he knew.

Now, I don’t know what the author has planned, or to what extent the Tree’s powers go, but from my point of view, the Tree’s to blame for all the current actions Niguel has taken. She could have easily have sent one of her followers, disguised as a random person, to try to show Niguel comion and to show him a better path, but either she didn’t think of it, or she willingly chose not to. Now if she allowed all of this to happen because she had some sort of master plan that involved all of this happening and everything working out for the better… then, as an amateur writer, I’m just going to call bullshit on that one.

THANK YOU.
You've put it succinctly. Even if the Tree had some fated intent or saw this as a wise path, it's HEAVILY flawed and devoid of any empathy.
But no matter how many times you try to explain that to someone they just spout the same "He could have turned his life around and been a perfect gentleman by now" balogna.
You don't just "get over" trauma. Or learn in a dang vacuum of guardianship.

rabid_rabbids said:
There's a really easy argument to make as to why Luna should make Nigel and others guardians: She's in a losing war. She doesn't have the luxury of being picky, so if someone comes along and says they want to fight, "why" shouldn't be her top priority.

Yeah, that's outright stated to be the case. Even before the time skip, fewer and fewer people want to become guardians, and even most of them are motivated by anger, pain, or fear. A "true" guardian can never be driven by those.

chestercat said:
You're thinking of a militia, not a divinely-filtered order of protectors. Nigel's character flaws wouldn't be good in a militia either, but at least not explicitly disqualifying - and I suppose I didn't specifically exclude "lower the bar on what being a guardian even means until Nigel can clear it", so, point.

A militia is an armed band of civilians who, generally speaking, have basic training in warfare at best. Luna's guardians obviously aren't that. I'm not saying give Nigel and the townspeople makeshift weapons and have them fight when chaos comes knocking, I'm saying Luna should loosen her standards, and start training anyone who's willing as a guardian. Again, she doesn't have the luxury of being picky in a losing war. She needs people who are willing to fight, and getting snobby about why they want to fight is just going to cost her. Whatever flaws Nigel might have, Luna obviously thinks he'll be important later. Alienating him is just a bad idea, full stop.

Probabòy had already been answered but being lat etot he game i have to ask....
with all this being said about Nigel and Luna fault...Has been answered WHY she is somehow fixated on Nigel? Or the other kids ? Why it had to be THEM, specifically, to the point that a personality flaw as "i am doing it just for the glory" can be very very serious? Had been a prophecy of sort? Even just hinted?

rabid_rabbids said:
A militia is an armed band of civilians who, generally speaking, have basic training in warfare at best. Luna's guardians obviously aren't that. I'm not saying give Nigel and the townspeople makeshift weapons and have them fight when chaos comes knocking, I'm saying Luna should loosen her standards, and start training anyone who's willing as a guardian. Again, she doesn't have the luxury of being picky in a losing war. She needs people who are willing to fight, and getting snobby about why they want to fight is just going to cost her. Whatever flaws Nigel might have, Luna obviously thinks he'll be important later. Alienating him is just a bad idea, full stop.

I'd disagree on "to hell with standards, let everyone become a guardian" and point to military service as an alternative, but that actually raises an interesting lore question. We haven't seen any kind of civilian military authority/organization so far, have we? Or any hint of warfare being a thing apart from the apocalyptic threat from the Chaos? I figure that's mostly because you can only show so much in a given number of pages and the focus of the story has been elsewhere, but I'm curious about how this society is supposed to be structured, behind the scenes.

Apart from that, though, you'll need to show your work in more detail if you want people to subscribe to both "Luna obviously foresees an important future for Nigel" and "Luna is completely clueless about how to handle Nigel to accomplish that future" simultaneously.

feztbaron said:
Has been answered WHY she is somehow fixated on Nigel? Or the other kids ?

Not sure I quite understand your question, but I don't think it's been specifically indicated that these particular kids are somehow Special in-world, apart from one of them being Luna's adopted daughter. The story is about them, so they get most of the screen time, but there are clearly other guardians.